Director, Utah Division of Indian Affairs
Forrest Cuch is the Executive Director of the Utah Office of Indian Affairs in the state's Department of Community and Economic Development. Born and raised on the Uintah and Ouray Ute Indian Reservation in Utah, Cuch has served as tribal administrator for the Wampanoag tribe in Massachusetts. He is the editor of "A History of Utah's American Indians," recently published by his office and the Utah State Historical Society.
Forrest Cuch was interviewed in his Salt Lake City office by program Producer Ken Verdoia.
Ken Verdoia: Let's begin, Mr. Cuch, with this difficult and very large issue of sovereignty. We hear it tossed around in many different ways when it comes to Native Americans. As Executive Director in Indian Affairs for the State of Utah, how do you view sovereignty?
Forrest Cuch: Well, first of all, sovereignty was here before the American colonists ever arrived here. It was here before the Spanish even arrived here. It was something that existed here among the American Indian people and it had to do with self-governance and decision making that is made in the best interest of the Indian people. So that's my first response.
Verdoia: It would seem then that the attempts to redefine sovereignty come with, what we call, pioneering settlement, with the incursion of settlers to traditional Native American lands, where a different definition of sovereignty is imposed. Is there a different definition in the contemporary setting of what constitutes a sovereign status for a Native American Nation?
Cuch: No. It goes back to that original concept because that was the colonists' response to American Indians, and that response came as a result of war. Conflict eventually resulted in treaties, and treaties are international instruments of law that recognize a relationship between to peoples. That law, that agreement is binding on both parties. It has benefits going to both, accorded to both and it has responsibilities as well. So, that agreement, that recognition of sovereignty goes back to colonial times. A lot of people fail to look at the historical aspect and consider the accuracy of the information going back to historical times. We take history too lightly; we don't realize the significance of history and how the actions of the past have effected law and our actions today.
For example, the King Phillip war was a major conflict that occurred in New England. There were thousands of colonists and Indians killed. In fact, the author James Lewyn points out in his book "Lies My Teacher Told Me" that the King Phillip war was larger than five similar wars around that time. It was larger then the American Revolution. It was larger then the Spanish American War. It was larger then the French Indian War and two other conflicts. In that war, more villages were destroyed in New England than in any other previous war. It was a major conflict and it was a conflict that followed fifty years of peaceful relations between the New England Indians and the Colonists.
So it was a major conflict that resulted in treaties. Those treaties are binding to this day and one of the most notable legal precedents was when the Cherokees took the state of Georgia to court over their issue of removal. The Cherokees won that battle, legally, in the Supreme Court in "Cherokee vs. Georgia." The Supreme Court ruled that Georgia had violated the treaty rights of the Cherokee nation. Nevertheless, Andrew Jackson, who was known for his famous statement, "The Supreme Court has spoken, now let them enforce it," removed the Cherokee in the well-known "Trail of Tears" episode. American Indian people are aware of that kind of situation, and we don't want to forget those things. In fact, our most powerful ally nowadays is the courts' recognition of that sovereign right. It is central to the issue of the Goshute nuclear storage proposal.
Verdoia: You speak of the limitations. If not imposed by courts but imposed by governments and it seems, as an outsider without the well read history that you understand so well, that when government has perceived value among Native Americans, it has taken that value regardless of issues of clearly established sovereignty.
Cuch: Certainly. It's always been at the expense of Indian peoples' land or their resources, and in interest of government.
Verdoia: So we look at a handful of individuals, the Skull Valley Band of the Goshutes, and we look at what might be viewed as their sovereign right to enter into economic development agreements. Can that be limited by the state?
Cuch: I am not a lawyer or a legal scholar; my understanding of federal law is that it will probably end up in a legal showdown between state vs. federal law. And, similar to the issue that happened a couple of years back with the state of Arizona, I forget the governor, and the U.S. Park Service, regarding the closure of one of the national parks, I would hate to see that happen here. I don't think that it's necessary and it would only serve to weaken the state and tribal relations. So I would hope we could avoid such a showdown but I'm afraid that's probably what's going to happen.
Verdoia: As the Executive Director of Indian Affairs you are well versed in the challenges faced by contemporary Native Americans, not just in Utah but throughout the West, the nation, perhaps even the world. We look at the Skull Valley Band, decidedly impoverished, in a section of the nation that does not enjoy great natural resource wealth, does not offer timber opportunities or oil and gas exploration opportunities. A tribe that has, through its leadership, expressed to us a sense that they are in fact fighting for survival. Can you appreciate the struggle faced by the Skull Valley Band?
Cuch: I can. I truly can. I'm not comfortable with the vilification of the Goshute people. I really struggle with the fact that now we have a nuclear storage issue, when in fact we've been involved in mining uranium for the nuclear industry for many years now. Ever since the 40s and 50s, we've been part of that industry. I'm uncomfortable with the fact that now we're concerned about pollution and destruction of the earth when in fact Magcorp has been operating for many years out there and is one of the top ten polluters in the country. I'm not comfortable with the simple solutions and quick reactions to very complex problems. And I'm a strong believer in dialogue. I'm a strong believer in the review of history, and study, and research, and then entering into serious dialogue, discussions that will lead to meaningful decisions that will benefit all of society, not just a few.
In this case, I look at this from different points of view, from the Indian, from red eyes, so to speak. One of the responses I have is that the Goshutes have been victims of genocide now for about 150 years. Now that their traditional culture is almost dead, meaning about 2/3 of their people, no longer operate from a traditional belief system and are in fact progressive and value material possessions like homes, cars, money in the bank, they want the same things we do. That they do and that they've found a way to accomplish it, we're upset at them for not being Indian, for not being traditional. That seems to me an unfair arrangement.
Verdoia: Is it a little too convenient to turn to this Skull Valley Band and say, "Why won't you be more Native American?"
Cuch: Exactly. They are convenient. They're available to be the brunt of all of this confusion and frustration and I don't think that's fair. I think that those people have been victims of a great suffering, and I think we need to be working with them instead of working against them. Once again, I strongly believe in dialogue, discussion. Traditional governmental system for American Indians in this area use to be consensus forms of government. You would sit down and discuss an issue. It may take days, it may take weeks. When the decision was finally made, that was it. Everyone stood by that decision. I don't think the nuclear storage or waste question has been answered yet for the nation. There's no national policy on what to do with nuclear waste and it's not answered because we haven't entered into a discussion. We haven't sat down and carefully weighed all of the information and research that's available. We haven't looked at the facts.
Verdoia: So when people, within the government realm, make statements such as, "This will not happen," that adamancy, that confrontation, you've expressed your desire but we're telling you, "No, the answer to your desires is no." Is that helpful?
Cuch: It is not. What it does is it implicates the issue. It comes on as a challenge and it brings in emotion; the reaction that accompanies that is a very complex issue and I think it needs to be treated as such. I'm well aware of the governor's position on this matter and the fact that he's taken that position. And I appreciate that he is opposing the nuclear waste in the state of Utah. I don't personally like the idea of storing waste in this state either. I don't think it's a good idea. On the other hand, I have an also belief that they could probably, based on the information I've reviewed, store that waste safely. I think they can probably contain it from the information that I have read.
So there are those two extremes operating, and what I would prefer is in between. I cannot say that just because I don't think it's a good idea, the Goshutes shouldn't look at it. I mean, they're suffering from poverty. They're coming from a completely different point of view, a different experience than I am. But I can also identify with them, culturally, to understand why that happens. It happened at the cost of their traditional belief system that our society is basically at war with. We are attempting to destroy that cultural belief system, and I think we're learning that it's at a cost because when we destroy that traditional belief system that is in love with the earth, we lose that wisdom and philosophy. In other words, we have contributed to that situation out there in Skull Valley. Our society, our culture has contributed to that situation out there and I think we need to sit down and examine what's happened and how we contributed to it and have a discussion with the Goshutes. I think we can learn something from this about ourselves and about the Goshutes.
Verdoia: It sounds like you're saying that when you ignore a people for 150 years and through ignoring, through taking their children out and sending them to Indian schools to change them, to teach them to dress in a different manner, to teach them to embrace a different lifestyle, that when that's been your pattern for a 150 years, you really haven't set the stage for building a consensus to work with those people when an issue like this comes up.
Cuch: The only part I would qualify is that it hasn't been a matter of ignoring. When you take children out of the homes and transport them thousands of miles away and educate them, that is not ignoring. That is genocide. That is a deliberate attempt to destroy a culture and a way of life. So I would put it a little stronger there. When you commit genocide against a people, there are going to be consequences. And the consequences may come around and bite us.
Verdoia: Yes.
Cuch: In fact, if we would have treated that traditional belief system with respect, maybe they wouldn't be supporting this idea right now. And maybe, maybe we could learn something from this process. The other side of this, governmentally, is consultation. Nobody consulted the Goshutes out there when it came to all of the waste that is conducted out there. Envirocare is nearby. The Dugway waste disposal area's incinerator is nearby. Nobody consulted those people when it came to setting up those installations. An example would be the fact that the Tooele County Commissioners and people support the Goshutes in this endeavor for that very reason. I've heard the comment from those officials and read the papers where they've said, "Well, we weren't consulted either about these installations when this whole area was zoned for waste. We were not consulted. We don't like the idea of everyone else benefiting from this designation except us." So for that reason you have an Indian Tribe that's joined with a city and a county government there to try to obtain some benefit from this development. I know the rhetoric in this area's always been local control and state's rights, but I also think that state's rights applies to towns and to tribes as well. That concept of local control has its benefits, but it also has its liabilities. If we start violating federal law in the process of conducting our own governmental activities, then I think we are paying a cost and there will be consequences for that as well.
Verdoia: And you can't say we believe in the principle of local control or control closest to the issue except when we disagree.
Cuch: Exactly.
Verdoia: You're either for it or against it.
Cuch: Right. And for that reason you have to sit down and examine all of the various aspects of that issue. The historical aspects, the scientific aspects, the socio-cultural aspects, you have to examine all of those issues.
Verdoia: One thing that's been offered to us, time and again, by Native American voices and by white government voices, is the sense that Native Americans have a unique commitment to the land. They have a unique spiritual, scared tie to traditional lands and therefore they should honor those ties.
Cuch: Well, it's the same analogy. There's the presumption that Indian people should be Indian, even though we have committed 150 years of genocide in our state and over 450 years of genocide throughout this country against those very traditional beliefs and ideology that once existed. The truth of the matter is that in our own state there's only one language spoken by one tribe, the Navajo, that is not in danger. The languages of the Shoshones, the Utes, the Goshutes and Piutes are in danger. Along with those languages are the culture, the belief system and the ideology. The reality is that Indians should be Indians, but there very few Indians around anymore because their culture has really taken a major hit over the last couple hundred years. There very few people that really have that sacred connection with the earth. There are very few traditional Shamen alive that understand and can articulate that connection. I was blessed with a relationship with the Sundance Chief of our Tribe, and he taught me a lot of wonderful things. That's why I'm able to speak to this, but he passed on. When he passed on a lot of that knowledge and wisdom went with him. The contention that Indians should and ought to be something that they're not is very faulty, inaccurate, and needs to be examined. People need to sit down and find out what the situation really is and then we can start discussing the issues from that point on.
Verdoia: It has been expressed to us that this storage proposal might well have been avoided if the state would have sought, in the past, to develop some sort of relationship with the Skull Valley Band, let alone any Native American people.
Cuch: I would have to agree with that because I think those discussions would have resulted in a meaningful relationship. Right now we don't have that meaningful relationship with the Goshutes. I think that's what's missing and I think that's what the problem is. Relationships are everything. That's how you move mountains in government, through relationships. And if relationships are lacking, things aren't going to happen. If things do happen they're probably going to be negative, and painful, and destructive.
Verdoia: The state Legislature has stepped forward and put their opposition tot he storage project into the form of law.
Cuch: They're looking for quick solutions and it's just not going to work because you are dealing with human beings, and human beings are complex. I guess the point I'm making here is very, very poignant. I'm saying those Skull Valley Goshutes are human beings also, and it's time our state recognized that.
Source: http://www.kued.org/
Question:
1. Does the Director of Indian Affairs take a sympathetic stance towards the Indians?
2. Given that the Bureau of Indian Affairs eventually denied the Skull Valley facility the lease necessary to have the facility why do you think the Utah director of Indian Affairs supported it?
3. Do you buy Mr. Cuch's argument that because the Native-Americans had no say in the creation of dangerous facilities that surround the area the Goshutes should be able to develop potentially dangerous facilities as well?
4. Do you think that the Indians are being unfairly judged as Mr. Cuch states? On one hand they are told they should be traditional, but on the other hand if they do not act like Americans it is likely that they will stay very poor.
5. Given that Mr. Hugens cited an interviewee who cites "Lies My Teacher Told Me", do you think that Mr. Hugens should get an A++ on this assignment?
6. Overall do you find Mr. Cush to be more, or less, balanced in his opinions about nuclear waste than the other interviewees that you've read about so far?
